AG: Ambridge Officer Admits To Buying Drugs And Tipping Off Drug Dealers

Andrew Wonto / Official Leet Twp Photo

Andrew Wonto / Official Leet Twp Photo

A part-time Ambridge Borough Police Officer has admitted to buying drugs while on duty, and to tipping off drug dealers about confidential informants, according to an an affidavit filed by the Pennsylvania Attorney General’s Office.

Andrew Wanto, 29 of Leet Township, was arrested last night and charged by agents with obstructing the administration of law, hindering apprehension or prosecution, and two counts of criminal attempt to possess with the intent to deliver a controlled substance.

Wanto also works as a part-time police officer in Leet Township where his father serves as Chief.

Agents say Wanto was purchasing cocaine and roxy’s (roxycodone), sometimes right out of his Ambridge patrol car. Confidential informants told agents that Wanto was purchasing drugs three to four times a week from September to October. The report alleges specific buys by Wonto took place on November 15, 23, 29, 30 and December 2nd and 3rd.

Wanto also allegedly exposed the names of the individuals who were cooperating with the Attorney General Office’s Region 6 Task Force, including the identity of a person who had been arrested for heroin.

Officer Wanto was arrested yesterday after agents used a confidential informant to contact him about buying Oxycontin. Wanto allegedly met with the informant while in an Ambridge patrol car to make the buy.

According to the affidavit filed by investigators, Wanto admitted to making the purchases during questioning, and also admitted to providing the identity of confidential informants to local drug dealers.

Court records show Officer Andrew Wanto was released on $25,000 unsecured bond. A preliminary hearing in the case is scheduled for Tuesday.

From The Affidavit Of Probable Cause:

wonto-affidavit

183 comments

    • Sadly, down in this end of the valley, you never really could. It’s a shame that it’s not like what it was when were growing up…..

  • This is just another example of how corrupt Beaver county is. This should show how the sheeple need to take notice and vote.

    • Cops are not “voted in” they are hired.

      I think its pretty scary that the police in this country are so out of control. If they don’t obey laws themselves how are we supposed to trust or respect them. This is a real shame for everyone involved. Everybody loses here.

    • “Sheeple” i only knew a few people who used that word… voting would do little to change this. Like any person politics could keep people from being people. But I think i get where your going but lovelution still would not have changed this.

  • The Ambridge police force needs to be investigated as an organized crime entity. Just a few years ago two officers were arrested by the FBI and convicted. They need dig deeper into what has happened in the past and what is currently going on in Ambridge with the police and their antics. Perhaps the only local law enforcement agency in Beaver County more corrupt than the Sheriff’s office. The Ambridge Police are a disgrace. Maybe this Wanto guy will spill the beans on his buddies in blue.

  • one down few others running around that need it next especially the ones that are dealing and shaking down the dealers then wholesaling

    LOL EYES ARE ON YOU

  • Wow….
    This guy had some balls on him, doing this shit in his marked cruiser. Even worse though, is that he completely pretty much fucked up anything that the AG’s office was doing down here, by giving out CI’s information. So, who’s accountable if one of those informants turns up dead? (This is just a hypothetical question…)

    Everyone bitches about the drug problems in Ambridge, and why don’t the cops do anything about it, ect ect.
    Well, here’s your answer as to why nothing is getting done. The cops are worse criminals than the dealers.

  • Oh my goodness, when is this going to stop? We the people should not have to put up with this crap. The whole county is bought and paid for. Maybe I am too old, but I remember when I respected and sometimes feared the police. Now I just fear them because they are so corrupt and can hurt the everyday public because they sold themselves to the highest bidder. No wonder there is so much crime.

  • its been going on for years it will continue to go on obviously he was the scapegoat for something bigger that couldnt get exposed i just hope that he is smart enough to keep his mouth shut and accept his punishment no harm no foul proper street ediquitte!!!

    • You hope he keeps his mouth shut?

      No harm, no foul? Proper street etiquette? THIS MAN WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ENFORCING THE LAWS, NOT BREAKING THEM AS HE SAW FIT.

      Yeah, I get the saying “snitches get stiches” and all that, but this was an officer of the law.

      I, for one, hope he outs EVERY SINGLE DIRTY OFFICER there.

  • Who should be responsible if the informant gets hurt or suddenly dies will always be on the (snitch) themselves they know the risks involved but they chose to sing and believe they will be protected.do the crime do the time shut your mouth and you’ll be a ok!!

    • Hey dumbass, that type of thinking is the reason towns like Ambridge have and will continue to go down the crapper. It’s also one of the ways that weasely cop can get away with this kinda stuff. Ass-backwards prison culture has no place in civilized society.

  • Oh good. Doesn’t this just give you a great feeling about your local police force. However I will say I have nephews who are policemen and NOT ALL the men are like this jerk. I have faith in my police force. Please don’t fail me.

    • AJ, you had NOTHING to do with it, so shut up. Stop trying to claim the glory for something you had NO HAND IN.

      Shouldn’t you still be in hiding, considering the warrants and shit out on you?

      • translation: “it sucks to be a police officer. Low paid ball lickers every one of them. and that’s the truth”

        Better?

      • No. It is not that I misunderstood what he was trying to say. It was that he said nothing; conveyed zero information about the world. How can something that says nothing about the actual world be “the truth”?

        All I am trying to do is understand. I am not trying to piss anyone off or start shit. You may get mad if I tell you your not making an argument or saying anything important or denying my claim, but Im not attacking the person, only the poor thoughts they are spouting off.

        This is what being objective means attacking ideas, not people. It is only a subjective emotional response to call someone an asshole or ball licker without cashing out those terms with some reasons why that might be so.

  • To Rob- The “drug dealer” is the lesser of the two evils. If he did expose drug use on the force, then he is a hero. This cop would have been trusted with anyone’s child. To Tom , This HAS been goin on for a long long time. At lest since 1996 when I was a freshman in Ambridge Area High School. I can’t wait till the FBI investigations come to light. YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

    • Did you just call a drug dealer a hero? Another term just thrown around.

      Are people who sell alcohol evil? Tobacco? Porn? Marijuana? Just because it is illegal does not make it “evil”. With consent from the Gov. do these things become less evil? Unhealthy and addictive maybe. Evil no.

  • If the dumbass was directed at me I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge me haha feeling good I got your attention I welcome peoples opinions.

  • Anthony 8 months ago told everyone Andy was a snich an a junky after the police tried setting him up cause he started copblock Anthony exposed him got the ball rolling an showed everyone the truth

    • How did Andy become a snitch junky after the police tried setting him up because he started copblock? And how did Anthony show this? … I know who you are and what you intended, so just picking on the run-on sentence. hows your son gevato

    • Wow, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all year. I’ve never even heard of this officer before today, and anyone who KNOWS me, knows I don’t touch that shit. As for your allegations that I was shooting up with him, your welcome to check me for track marks, but, if there was any, I’m sure my PO would have noticed, as would the courts.
      So, when you have something non slanderous to say, then we’ll talk. But first, you should probably take AJ’ s dick out of your mouth. That will make it easier to understand you.

    • Also, if you have proof, let’s see it. Since I KNOW for a fact that there isn’t any, I don’t expect to be hearing any noise coming from your mouth.

  • Lets take a poll,. Everyone sound off on the corrupt Police Departments out there that they can prove (this case in point). List the Dept, and reason (proof) why….. Not just someone to spout off their dislike for, but something that can be substantiated… Lets go….

      • Right Buzzkill because everyone here uses their real name, “Dumbass” “Buzzkill”!!!

      • Not everyone uses their real names, but matching descriptions of the act, the department, and the person listing it, it’s not that hard to add 2+2.

  • Yeah this guy is in some big trouble!!! How lucky was his drug dealer tho.. You rat out a police officer for buying drugs on duty in a marked car, and disclosing confidential and potentially life threatening information about CI’s.. That drug dealer is def back on the street.. I bet the wasn’t in jail for more than 15 min….

  • Keep his mouth shut? Did you keep your mouth shut every time you went to jail? You cried like the bitch you are Ash.

  • I understand all of the negative comments about this asshole and as long as their in direct reference to him I completely agree. But I’ll come clean and state that I’ve in been in law enforcement in this county for 12 years. There’s probably at or near 500 cops in this county. Since I’ve started this job, probably 10 or less have been arrested/investigated. All those guys are assholes and the good cops, who are the majority, agree that their assholes. They make us all look bad and quite frankly we resent their behavior and the black cloud they bring upon us. Please, perhaps look at us with cynicism, but know that the vast majority of us are good and took our oaths for a reason. I’d die or get my ass kicked in an attempt to help a complete stranger because I care, as well as the other cops, because we care about the citizens. It’s been said a hundred times, there’s bad apples in every profession. I don’t swear off the dentist because a dentist was convicted of sexually assaulting a sedated patient. Hopefully JP speaks up on this and tells you that some of his tips on corruption does come from cops

    • author

      What Blueman says is true, and I do want to take this opportunity to emphasize that much of the reporting I do is informed by members of the law enforcement community.

      These officers and deputies wear their badges with pride, and often step forward to help expose corruption, quietly defending the people they are sworn to protect in ways not taught in any academy.

      I am proud of their service, and humbled by their trust.

      I’ve written about this before, but it’s probably now appropriate to republish this excerpt from a piece I published back in June:

      A Special Thank You To Our Sources

      Given all that has been in the news lately, I want to take this opportunity to thank the many confidential sources who make our particular brand of reporting possible. Anything the Beaver Countian has accomplished is owed to this diverse group of nameless people, who stand united in their desire to bring light to some of the darkest corners of our community. These faceless strangers regularly risk their careers, and sometimes even safety, to help keep you informed.

      While leaks at the federal level may spring debates about national security, most agree there is very little our local governments legitimately need to keep bottled up. The work of our sources has resulted in political candidates dropping out of races, elected officials resigning from office, and people in power facing criminal prosecutions.

      Needless to say, our sources could face significant retaliation if ever exposed, and a great deal of resources go toward preventing that from happening. There are those who are expending significant effort to unmask these unsung heroes.

      In a county where apathy is trendy, where only 15% of voters show up to the polls, these citizens have shown a profound dedication to their communities. For that we should all be grateful.

      Securely Contact The Beaver Countian:
      http://beavercountian.com/secure-contact-form

    • The thing is Anthony Bruno and Fpolice would probably point to is the same figure. That is “for nearly 12 [only] 10 or less cops in the area have been arrested or investigated”. However, your point about the dentist makes perfect sense. It is connected to the point I have made in other parts of the thread being a bad cop only makes you a bad cop not an asshole. No more than being a bad teacher, fireman or plumber makes you an asshole. Moreover, being a good cop does not stop you from being an asshole. My further claim, which you will likely deny is that the denist committed an unforgivable moral wrong. Wanto did’nt. The worst thing he did morally, was lie. But we accept certain forms of lying in our society but no form of sexual assault. Moreover, is the worst lie anyone could tell ever worse than say, sexual assault, rape murder? No. So my main point is to demonize Wanto is only to make him a whipping boy for a decaying political/legal structure. And doing that is what I think is wrong.

  • Thank you JP, means alot that you immediately stepped up and defended the majority of law enforcement in this county that are honest, legit and trying to make a difference. I know there will always be a group of people who have deep seeded hatred towards authority/law enforcement, and for whatever reason that cannot be changed. But I emphasize again, merely based on the factual numbers, a very small percentage of officers in this county are not on the straight and narrow. I know for a fact that most departments will police their own. If there’s a shitty cop on the job, he’s either modified, turned in or terminated. Nobody condones or wants to be around that shit. Not only for the legal standpoint, but as well as the black cloud that would fall over an entire dept should he or she ever get jammed up. In recent articles, many racist comments have been made about bar fights, crimes and certain communities. Several of the above commenters were first to address the racist overtone of the comments. And kudos to them for calling out the racists. But in this comment section, stereotyping is prevalent and nothing is said. There’s no difference between racism and stereotyping. So please keep that in mind before you bash the hell out of the majority

    • Blueman, why was there a surprise, SECRET and well attended meeting held by the off duty Ambridge Police and other local police officers held tonight ??? All led by Officer Steroidvich ?? The location ? The basement of the American Legion . Why the meeting ? Nothing to hide ? Shut up. What was the subject of conversation ?

  • all the Ambridge cops are on the take just look at all the drug front stores between 5th and 6th street on main street.and why do all the people that go to that dive bar there are from Pittsburgh.that’s where all the drugs come from.fire all Ambridge cops.it is time to clean house Ambridge.

    • I do not understand why everyone is thinking this guys is an asshole? If the headline read “Ambridge man admits to buying drugs” so what. “But he is a cop”
      Well what if he was a garbage man addmiting to littering, or a teacher lying to children, or fireman placing cats in trees? I get it, its ironic, contradictive, illegal, and pitiable behavior. That does not justify demonizing the guy. He’s not a murderer or rapist. His crimes are non-violent.

      • Seriously? Last time I checked, the dealing and buying of drugs was illegal. Also, he was giving out CI’s info to other dealers and tipping them off to raids.
        Last time I checked, he was an officer of the law, who was supposed to be UPHOLDING IT, not BREAKING IT.
        Oh, and the fact he was doing this bullshit in a marked cruiser is just the icing on this shit cake.
        EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS MAKES HIM AN ASSHOLE. Also, gives the good cops (and there are some) a huge black eye, as it does to the town of Ambridge, and the county of Beaver.
        You must be a special kind of stupid.

      • I guess I am somewhat ignorant. Im not challenging the legal issues, if he is guilty charge him. lm challenging all these reactions. The thinking that he is any more morally deficient than most of the people in this area in general. A regular guy is being demonized for crappy behavior but behavior that would not be seen as outrageous if he were not a cop. Of course the fact that he is wearing a badge it plays into the legal issues. Again not my point. But it does not play into the morality of the situation? If the same thing happened to a normal citizen there would not be as much outrage. If you think the moral siuation is any worse because he is a cop, you suffering from an emotional attachment to the law. That is you are simply collapsing morality into the law when they are two different things. You should be no more upset if your friend, say Tim the garbage man said “yeah cops got me for drugs and interference with other drug cases. I don’t know how I got here in my life but it did.” Does it matter that Tim is a garbage man? No. You might be upset by his actions but knowing the guy you would likely not demonize him.
        So yes the special kind of stupid I must be is due to thinking that breaking the law does not make you an asshole. Being a morally corrupt person does. Really all you can say he did that was morally wrong was lie. There is nothing morally wrong with buying drugs or being a drug addict. Now, again I am not suggesting that he did nothing wrong or should not be punished. But if all he did that was morally wrong was lie allow the law to take its course and get over it.

      • That is exactly what I am challenging. I am simply pointing to that fact that there is no grounds for holding ANYONE to a higher moral standard. Here is my argument
        Premise one: Morality is a relational between people and other beings
        e.g. Andy saves drowning child: we would call this a morally good action. Or, Andy robs an old lady: morally bad
        Premise two: Morality is found in the action itself.
        That is it makes no difference what cloths, excessories, finances, hobbies, job, gender or social status a person has when they save a child. The action itself is good.
        Conclusion: If we imagine Andy was not a cop and he did the same thing, the morality of his actions would be no different.

        You seem to be claiming that when the action is bad, somehow these things come into play. When in reality they are all accidental to the situation. That is, if all the facts about the incident were the same except anyone of these accidentals, the morality of the case would unknown until the persons cloths, excessories, finances, hobbies, job, gender or social status were all verified? Is that your claim?

      • So…Using your logic So crates, Andy telling the drug dealers who are “snitching” on them and working with the AG’s office is morally OK? Let me tell you something. If one of these people end up dead in an alley somewhere because of his big mouth, he can and should be charged with depraved indifference. The fact that he was wearing a police uniform, in a police car, on DUTY, doing what he was doing, is in itself MORALLY WRONG on so many levels. You will NEVER admit to that, EVER. So, enjoy your little insignificant life. :omg:

      • Your not using my logic, your making inferences from things I have said that don’t jive with your beliefs. So, I said if everything he did was done by someone that was not a cop, it would not be viewed so outrageous. It is hard to quantify the telling of “snitches” by the fact that he did not lie to anyone in that regard but that is where he broke his oath and lied to his coworkers and communty. So I would call it a mostly legal act: specifically an illegal one. I don’t think we want to put moral limits on communication that is not lying? Only the lying is immoral.
        Can you qualify what you mean by wrong on so many levels and also clairify what you mean by morality? As I have said, as I see morality is in the actions themselves. It look as though you might be arguing that morality is in the consequences. If this is your position, that’s a fine objection which many people accept. But then you would have to admit that his actions were good if they end up transforming the local police in such a way to stop all the corruption and it actually makes Ambridge better place. As for the the killing of snitches, do we blame the cops for the deaths of those who snitches that get out so fast that people know they snitch? No we don’t, nor do I think we should. Where is the line we would have to draw in holding people responsible for the actions of others? If I am wrong I will admit it but no one has given me a reason to think I am.

      • “The fact that he was wearing a police uniform, in a police car, on DUTY, doing what he was doing, is in itself MORALLY WRONG on so many levels.”

        When you say this you are saying there is a very specific moral code somewhere in the universe that it accounts for being in cloths: speciffically a police uniform; being in a vehicle: speciffically a police vehicle, doing a certain job: being a cop; and performing specific actions which by themselves may not seems so immoral but in this situation they were. That is what it means to say “in it self” in conjunction with these things. On your logic there are other moral codes for the same thing but in one the man is on a boat, and others where a woman in an ally, and another one where a parrot is involved. You can dress the story up however you want it, the actions are always the same and it is by these that we should judge character. It does not matter what vehicle he was in, what job he was on, what cloths he was wearing. I ask does it matter what job the “man accused of raping nun” had, the cloths he was wearing, does it matter what car he drove to the scene. Of course not. So why does i matter here? You cant simply say it matters in one case and not the other. If you have a reason why it matter please tell me I am all ears.

        “So, enjoy your little insignificant life. :omg:” How has anything I have said made my life less important than anyone else? For all you know I spend my days rescuing children from bad situations and give them a supporting home so they can get through school and go to college. I might spend my summers in guatamalla building churches for poor towns. I may have made my way to both the huricane katrina and sandy sites to give aid and help rebuild. But because of a few words my life is now insignificant. Okay. I see why you and I disagree.

      • In case you have not noticed, you are not convincing anyone with your gobbledygook BS. Funny how you boys in blue always protect that thin blue line. He should have been FIRED on the spot instead of allowed to resign. Being fired for what he did would have never allowed him to be in law enforcement in PA ever again. There are a few of those Ambridge cops who where allowed to resign instead of being fired from other departments, who should have been fired. In reality what this ass clown did is childs play compared to what others did and still do. He was just dumb enough to get caught. Bet his prick daddy is proud of him. Karma is a bitch!

      • Teachers are also held to the “unspoken” higher moral code. That is why a teacher is charged and fired for sleeping with a student even if that student is 18.

  • wow the sheriff ohioville chief now ambridge Wow what’s happening in Beaver County.. I’m so shame because I’m always bragging about my home county. I guess I’ll have to stop bragging. wow. turn that reporter for Countian, JP loose on the case. I can’t really say anything because Albany is probably the most corrupt government in the country. aight senators and five Congress Assemblyman are under indictment. I’m scared of the Popo

  • Anthony got the ball rolling an it went down 4th st threw a building an hit Andy Rite in the face what bout james mann getting blow jobs in ace parking lot or officer z f@$king underage girls or the drunk cleber an his butt buddy doug Miller They all work with drug dealers in ambridge look down on park roAd you see them talking an Meeting heroin dealers all day an nite Fuck ambridge an the mayor he in on it to nice police force richy hope Bill wonto pulls the triger. Bang bang in the Temple no pain

    • What in the world are you attempting to say?

      Next time you comment, use complete sentences with punctuation marks.

      • Mr. Bruno’s alternate personality doesn’t spell any better than his true personality.

  • An dont forget harmony police too lively vular an the rest of them They protect 2 of the biggest drug dealers around an They live on the same road as them aint that strange the steel city Pipe line

    • Hey AJ, you didn’t get anything rolling. All you did was run around with your stupid little video camera, and stir up shit, just to provoke a reaction. That’s all.

      That’s also why you are in hiding. Well, that, and the MULTIPLE warrants for your arrest.

      Here’s a tip. If you’re going to try to have to different accounts on here, you should probably learn how to spell and use punctuation and proper sentence structure for at least one of them. That way, it actually looks semi legit that it’s two people, instead of just one with two accounts.

      • He has multiple accounts all over Facebook, also….Half of the people on the Ambridge Memories know his accounts and have blocked him so they don’t hear his idiotic rants. You’re absolutely right Nikki….changing the name of the poster doesn’t hide him at all when anyone can see that it is AJ…Voluntaryist…CopBlock…Bruno.

      • @realregularguy….copblock isn’t just AJ, it’s his buddy Craig too, and strangely I have more dirt him, than he could EVER did up on anyone. Out of the kindness of my heart, I’m letting it go, for now. I believe fpolice MIGHT be Craig, but not sure. AJ likes the attention though…

  • Part Time Police……although not all Part Time Police Officers are bad, you have to wonder why a person settles for a part time Police Officer job. For some, it is a necessary stepping stone, many dedicated Police Officers started out as Part Time. For some, they can’t pass a full time test. For some, it’s a political hire. For some, they like their day job but want to be a Police Officer too. The reason Municipalities have Part Time Police is to save money…….well sometimes you get what you pay for.

  • Well said blueman… Anyone who hates all police obviously is doing something dirty. Your butt wouldn’t hate the police if they were the first responder and saved your life! Get real ppl yes this man is a bad egg and a looser but not all police are. Hope they make an example of him in court!

    • I disagree. I have a massive dislike for law enforcement in pretty much any capacity. I’m not doing anything wrong. Haven’t in a long time. When I was a kid, I never had a problem with them, considering my family is personal friends with quite a few officers. As I got older, I saw how the departments were changing. The officers today are nothing like what we grew up with, and that’s a shame.

      • A massive dislike for law enforcement?? I would think someone as smart as you would know like everything else it is on an individual basis. Spike

    • And you would hate a volunteer fireman that saved your life by pulling you from a burning building? That is if he were also a drug addict cop? What makes him any worse than you? Tell us of your stories of pure virtue.

  • Get real Lisa, they aren’t going to do anything to this jack-off, he’ll get off with probation at best, and the union will continue to pay him………. errr, I mean we’ll continue to pay him, and the bullshit goes on and on and on!

  • Storman1, wtf are you talking about the union will pay him?! First off, nobody gets payroll from a union in any profession. Secondly, as a part timer, he’s an at-will employee and can be easily dismissed and won’t receive another cent from Ambridge. Thirdly, union representation only steps in if he was wrongfully terminated or disciplined, which is far from the case here. He’s an asshole, piece of shit that does nothing but encourage people like Nikki P to hate us as a whole. @Nikki P, sorry you feel that way about me and those in my profession. Hopefully some day that will change and you’ll see that the majority of us do care and give people a fair shake. We do far more good than bad. Stereotyping is considered wrong in all walks of life, unless it’s hatred of all police, then somehow it’s considered acceptable

    • My issues with law enforcement stem from the crooked and the assholes. I KNOW there are good people in law enforcement. Hell, my uncle is in that line of work. I grew up knowing 90% of the Ambridge police dept by their first names. It’s the assholes that ruin it for everyone. And sadly, the biggest asshole of them all is sitting on his throne in Ambridge.
      My issue is this: I understand and respect that you have a job to do. BUT, just because you have a job to do, doesn’t mean you should do it with the least respect possible towards people. I’ve had waaaay too many dealings with cops and sheriffs that show no respect at all, even when they have not been disrespected themselves. I will show officers respect, until they don’t deserve it anymore, and then, well, we’ll just leave that one alone.
      Also, a lot of officers are thugs, nothing more. Power hungry thugs. And THOSE are the ones that will NEVER be shown an ounce of respect.
      A lot of my hatred of law enforcement stems from an incident where I was assaulted by a high ranking officer in Ambridge. After that, the gloves came off. There’s why I’ve lost all respect for law enforcement.
      I’m the kind of chick that I’ll show respect, but if you show none in return, or attempt to bully me, well, it’s on then. Sorry.

    • Blueman: “Stereotyping is considered wrong in all walks of life, unless it’s hatred of all police, then somehow it’s considered acceptable” You yourself seem to be stereotyping law breakers and drug addicts as asshole pieces of shit.

      Why is he “an asshole, piece of shit”. Is it because he broke the law or because hes a drug addict, or both. Ghandi, MLK, Mohamad Ali all broke the law, we would likely call none either of these things (this is not a comparison in character, the only reason to use these names is to make the point that breaking the law does not imply being an asshole piece of shit) Drug addict? Miles Davis, John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix (this list goes on extensively) No implication here either.
      The only reason he seems to be so bad is because he was a cop in conjunction with these things. I will not stop harping on the point that being a bad cop does not make you a bad person, just like being a good cop does not make you good person. We must be clear when passing judgment on a mans character we look at his moral behavior not his conventional behavior. He lied, like every president and politician who has served in this country. That’s it. Not that lying is okay but this castigation is ill-founded.

      • @So crates-He took an oath. He is supposed to stand for something. He is doing the same things that he is arresting people for with no compunction. If you do not understand why this makes him an asshole, then you truly are an asshole too.

      • An oath is purely legal tenure. I am not arguing saying he did nothing illegal. I agree he had a job to fulfill and did so even though he was a drug addict himself. What I do not understand is why we think what he did was so MORALLY wrong? My claims are

        1. Legal and moral issues, though they have a relation, they are not the same. Moral has to do with how we treat each other. What counts as moral does not change over time. Legal is the ever transforming set of laws on the books that change every year.
        2. buying and doing drugs is not morally wrong even if it is illegal. If a person is not harming anyone but themselves it cant be morally wrong; there is no other person or creature to partake in the relation.
        3.The only moral violation Wanto made was to lie. If we are going to ostracize him because he is a liar, we better be consistent and not ignore all the other types of lies (among other things) we accept in our society. There are much worse things going on in town than lying, like rape and murder. these are the people that need ostracized from society not a regular guy who had a small moral failing (which no human on earth has gone to their grave with out committing) which turned into a big legal issue.

        Look at are last 3 presidents one lied to the whole country the other did cocaine and took us o war, this one murders(killing more than is being targeted) with drones. These are all generally accepted claims. So before we get in a big uproar i think we need to look in the mirror and examine the criteria we use for judging other people. Mine criteria is morality: how someone treats other people. It doesnt matter if the guy is the president or a jehadis; you dont kill innocent people. Likewise, it doesnt matter if you are a cop, the president or a garbage man you should not lie to people its crappy behavior.However we can find ways to forgive people for it. Where in the other types of immoral behavior it is much more difficult.

  • Red flag number one upon employment, he’s a cop with a goatee and has a five o’clock shadow for a department photo. Supposed to be clean cut. Take notice Patterson, Sheriffs office and Chippewa

    • I do not understand how facial hair raises a red flag? That is no better than saying if a guy is black it raises a red flag.

      • Sooo….How are you related to this criminal? Or are you just another rouge cop trying to justify this rouge cops behavior?

      • I know the guy. I am not a cop. I am not justifying anything. He lied and broke the law and should pay the price for breaking the law. But I am simply wondering how everyone else feels so justified in morally condemning him for lying. It it clear to me that no one is distinguishing the moral and the legal. Once this is done, a clear mind can see that what he did was not much worse than anything that could have befallen any other regular person.

      • I still do not see how facial hair is a red flag!?!? Redflag’s are things like caught stealing, raping, murder. Not his pants are wrinkley, his tie is crooked, he has facial hair, hes balding, she’s black, she’s blonde, she’s from ambridge, or he went to quaker valley…. completely irrelevant stuff.

      • My claim “I do not understand how facial hair raises a red flag? That is no better than saying if a guy is black it raises a red flag.” got 5 out of 5 negative votes.
        So either these 5 people think it is okay to say “being black raises a red flag” OR “facial hair raises a red flag” is worse than saying ” being black raises a red flag”.
        Which is it?
        My claim has been neither is okay

  • But let one of them be killed or injured in the line of duty and you all wanna make them saints.

  • Nikki p shit the Fuck up cunt this aint aj you stupid ass Bitch an he aint hiding everyone knows were to find him why u hiding behind some screen name fake ass junky Bitch I no who u are

    • Ohh, you sound butthurt.

      Do you really think I care if you know who I am? If you are thinking yes, then guess what, YOU’RE DEAD WRONG.
      And yeah, he’s hiding. And all those that you claim “know where he is”, sweetie, that’s called “aiding and abetting a fugitive”, so not only when they do catch up with him, it’ll be the rest of y’all too, going to go enjoy the hospitality of the BCJ.
      Oh, I’m not hiding behind a screen name. Strangely enough, though, YOU ARE.
      “fake ass junky bitch”…well, I hate to disappoint you, but that ain’t me. You have proof, or are you just gonna go with more slanderous allegations.
      Are you able to construct a proper sentence, because until then, do the rest of the room a favor, and go fuck off. I don’t care in which direction, just fuck off.

      • your arguments are no more compelling than his. your simply emoting. doz splling matr in a txtn adge? if you understood that sentence then no.

  • Vondell, maybe because they died trying to help somebody that they didn’t even know. What’s your asset to society?? What do you do personally or professionally to try to make your town better??

    • He does NOTHING to make anything better! He’s a criminal himself. He’s nothing more than a race baiting poverty pimp.

    • I appreciate your point but to tie a persons worth to utility is a poor understanding of what makes us human.

      • Do you actually have a VALID point, or are you just trying to stir up more shit?

      • To say all government is crooked I took to mean we should abolish it; thats anarchy. Petr Kropotkin was an anarchist writer. Thinking because a guy did some coke we should abolish government seems a bit rash.
        Im not trying to stir up shit. Most of what I have said, has been said clear. It may seem odd but I have given my reasons which nobody has denied but only scoffed at.
        Do you know what valid even means? I may be am being a bit provacative but I layed out a DEDUCTIVE argument for my view and if you accept the PREMISES you must accept the CONCLUSION: thats what a valid argument is. True under all circumstances. Unless you can deny one of my premises, I have made my VALID point.

      • So, somehow, you took what she said about all branches of government being crooked, to mean that she is promoting anarchy?

        That’s quite a far reach, friend.

      • Is it that far of a stretch? If I think all things x are bad, I avoid them at all cost. If a person thinks all form of government is bad, it follows that they think it is something that should be avoided. What else could one mean by saying something is bad than avoid this bad thing?

  • David u should be pulled over for driving on a suspended license dude But this cop just fucked every case he has ever filed. If you where convicted and arrested by this guy you just got your get out of jail card

  • There sure are alot of dirty cops running around. I think Blueman’s estimate of 10 or so is a bit biased.

  • @weredareres I’m sorry but I don’t know your faggot ass so keep my name out of your mouth.unless you the noss plan snitch who ratted me and ole freedom boy out even then keep my name out your mouth thanks for your cooperation.

    • author

      Your repeated comments regarding “snitches” have been more than simply suggestive, and borderline on threatening.

      While I appreciate that such vitriol may work for you on street corners at night, I believe you’ll find it carries no weight on here. I think you’ll also find our readership are rather appreciative of “snitches,” as they’ve grown tired of scourge eroding their communities.

      To “survive” the Beaver Countian’s comments’ section, you must rely on your intellect alone. I would challenge you to challenge yourself, step outside of your comfort zone, and attempt to carry on a conversation like a normal civilized human being.

      Thanks for being a reader of the Beaver Countian.

      • you’ll also find their/his readers are rather appreciative of “racist comments”, “as they’ve grown tired of scourge eroding their communities”.

    • Mr. Ash,I know you, but you won’t remember me. I usually saw you when you were at your worst. Again J.P. is right, I want to see people “snitch” because if everyone stood up to tyrants, bullies and idiots the world would be a better place. We need to work together to stop the law breakers and those people who cried “I didn’t do it!” when they were incarcerated. You haven’t changed at all, still crying.

  • oh people people cops work work under payed they do some shady stuff and if u look at the other ad in this site it talks about a sgt. to but yes you cant trust cops but i bet the cop was threaten of his life if he did tip the dealers off or he was getting paid to do so i dont trust a lot of officers but i can say there are some out there that i can call out to if i need help so one bad cop that made bad judgement doesnt mean all cops are bad……….

  • AJ and fpolice,

    Can you show us, prove to us, what happened between you and Andrew Wanto? Just looking for alittle bit of proof for your case and point you are trying to make. I followed your site, but isn’t online anymore so show us something?

  • I’m sorry that this has happened, but glad that he is no longer on the street. I worked for over a year in Beaver, doing trainings for social services. Every time, I’d have to call at 7am and have the police come and unlock the door for me, then have them come lock the building when I finished. Every officer that I interacted with polite and professional, if not downright friendly. I would let everyone know that I didn’t live in BC so there was no political reason to be nice – and I’m certainly not a “hottie.” They genuinely seemed like nice guys. When my contract changed and I was dong work that required me to pass through the social services building, I had the same experience with the Sherriff’s Department – everyone was polite, friendly and willing to talk with me about any issues I was having in the community. I was very impressed. Like Nikki, I had a negative view of law enforcement due to a bad experience, and my experience in Beaver County helped me worked through some of that.
    One question I do have to ask though – when we hire a bad social worker, as a staff, we run that person out – if they are misrepresenting us, harming clients, or being generally icky. For the officers here – when you know someone is a bad seed don’t you push them out? I don’t mean take them around back and beat them with a hose – but social isolation, awful assignments, etc.?

  • One bad apple, does not spoil the bunch. Police are, our first line of defense to the bad guys. Most are dedicated, overworked & under paid. They are among first responders, to every crisis. They are in harms way, daily. There are good & bad in every occupation.

    • Wow. What a joke . You must mean “one bad Appel”. Or am I dating myself by referencing out of date and irrelevant Ambridge cops from the 60s 70s and 80s.

      • You’re not “dating” yourself with the Appel reference, as I too remember it very well….
        And he’s still around…..sadly.

  • Nikkip knew every ambridge police officer growing up because they probably ran a train on your skank ass. Ha ha how people sell their body’s for dope.

  • Steel City pipeline? Bahaha that’s funny! They DONT cut grass you dirtbag! Don’t hate the player AJ hate the game…….you will never be smart enough or motivated to do what they do! Funny how you hide in your rabbit hole and talk shit! You are A. Drug addict, drug dealer, and running from a $100 fine! My my, and you are talking shit? Walk the walk before you talk shit crackhead! Um the missing teeth are a dead giveaway:) just because somebody comes up you automatically label them a drug dealer! When’s the last time you helped out a family in need? Or gave someone a lift out of despair? EXACTLY. Never! I challenge you here and now to produce anyone who has purchased drugs from them. Get a fucking job hobo! You have WAY too much time on your hands! Tell your whore mother to quit slinging pills to underage boys! You have been exposed…..crack is whack AJ :upset: :lol: :zipped:

  • Who goes on here and slanders businesses? AJ Bruno is a crack addicted loser. He’s mad cause he couldn’t get a job with them. I know these people, and they are good people. Merry Christmas

  • I seem to have a lot of :thumbsdown: on my posts but only one person told me why they disagree. A reasoned discussion amongst citizens should take the form:
    Someone makes a claim, then provides evidence
    Another either refutes the evidence or assents to the claim

    You cannot simply deny a claim without denying the reasons or evidence for it. I don’t mind being disagreed with, just tell me why I am wrong so I might cure my “special kind of stupid”

    Simply casting epithets toward each other brings nothing positive; even if it feels good to do so. These forums are a great way to have a public discourse w/o fearing what you say might be wrong or even stupid. That does not grant us to say only stupid things by ignore the dialectic
    .
    “In all Debates, let Truth be thy Aim, not Victory, or an unjust Interest: And endeavor to gain, rather than to expose thy Antagonist.”-William Penn

    • There is nothing controversial in the above claim. Given the negative reaction people must simply be ignorant to the way argumentation works. What are the criteria this forum uses? It appears to be no better than watching a sports game. Boo / horrah is all I see; nothing substantial.

    • Socrates would be at a loss for words here, So crates, for there are few Platos in the audience to teach. But, you can use his method and ask questions that lead to the answers you seek. I do empathize with your desire for debate. A few people here might agree to that. However, it is clear that many of these current comments are only meant to personally attack and harm. They defy debate.

      For those of us who can remember the “Before-BeaverCountian Era” and now support the “After-BeaverCountian era” as a very effective instrument of change, the attacking comments offer little, if anything, to support the site. Rather, they drag it down. What casual reader would want to jump in here and try to make a serious point or debate one?

      Go to the BCT and try to comment there on closed or over-monitored comment sections, like the one for the Bullock story, and you will get a grasp of what it means to be silenced. Try typing in a mildly offensive four letter word, maybe “damn”, and you will be shut off. For that matter, try typing in “God”, and the same thing will happen.

      This insight likely won’t stop the nasty comments, but at least some of these people could pay for the privilege. I do, and I make an effort to add to the quality and effectiveness of the site, not sully it with despicable comments. So, drag it down, and you will rue the day when editing or discontinuing the privilege occurs. Or at least pony-up and compensate for your damage.

      • its not he debate. I actually thought I could get people to think more deeply about this issue, whether we agreed or not.

  • This ain’t aj dumb fucks . Wanna talk bout whore moms steel city mom blows cops jimmy man Jason vular . cheats on husband with her workers the daughters to suck off cops to get out of DUI an if I can remember she was asking me to find her pills for her problem so keep talking an I Will keep putting names out there like u all are doing to aj. He is a good friend of mine he never did drugs or sold them an talking bout his mom go ahead say that shit to someone in his family’s face an I bet you get a trip to the E.R.he is in trouble cause he challenged some crooked cops an don’t let anyone push him around and stands up for even your rights in this fucked up country aj made one quote on here said your welcome an you all think I am him ok I just going to keep putting everyone on blast out here so everyone keep talking shit cause I got a lot more shit I can say . So keep up cause I can go all year talking bout the fucked up people in ambridge an harmony just remember why we all are on here cops doing dope an breaking the law. They should drop a nuclear bomb on beaver county ground zero ambridge

    • Whoa,,,lets get a grip here. fpolice, this discussion is about a corrupt police officer, which was the discussion up until you decided to trash a community business. Unless you have proof of the accusations that you are casually throwing around about Steel City and it’s ownership, I would suggest that you stop doing so. Calling someone a cunt, stating that a business owner gives sexual favors to a police officer in exchange for police protection from several felonious crimes, in writing as it is here, also opens yourself up to slander.

      Suggesting that a business owner is using their long-established business as a drug pipeline with the help of a police officer, who’s name you have use in this forum, who is not accused of a crime, is also grounds for slander. This forum can help you to remain anonymous up until the time a lawsuit is filed and a subpoena is issued to this website for your identity, should Steel City or Mr. Vular choose to sue.

  • Didn’t your crackhead mama tell you not to mess with fire? From what I can see they have money so your accusations are basically revenge motivated. No need there to suck anyone off! You are obsessed with them. You will never work there or be anywhere near her daughters.Accept it! Btw pussy, reveal yourself and then talk shit! Haha. Walk fast brother, I’m right behind you! You must be shooting dope again AJ. Please get help. :beatup:

  • Did you nod out AJ? Your grammar sucks. The pitfalls of doing drugs at the age of 10. Your 6th grade education is evident. Your obsession with these people is scary. Seems to me folks, everybody that arrested, rejected, or rebuffed that dirtbag is put on blast. He does not reveal BAD people, these people have pissed him off. He uses social forums to slander and defame hard working people. It’s a shame this rabbit hides in his hole and spews his garbage, yet calls other people out with false claims. I hope you show your dirty face soon. I’m going rabbit huntin:) btw don’t ever threaten anybody cause it might backfire. :zipped:

  • Looks like the devil is alive in Ambridge. This is about the article AJ, not about your personal vendettas. From what I can see these people have money so no need for sucking anybody off. Are you obsessed with Jamie Manns dick? It’s in EVERY post. So is anybody else that you are obsessed with. Do you pay taxes? Contribute to society? STFU then. It’s getting old. Your obsessions are overtaking your life. If you put half as much energy in working as you do slandering people, you would get somewhere in life. Put down the needle, crack pipe, and get help. :erm:

    • You right AJ, it’s just SHIT that comes out your mouth. And don’t admit you sell you’re mama’s pills you dumbass. You contradict yourself! Haha make sure your not high before you post something. Say whatever you want! Anybody who believes your garbage has zero credibility. Looks to me they are sitting on top of the world and you my friend, are still hiding in your rabbit hole. :
      :yawn:

  • @So crates: You seem to be dabbling in Immanuel Kant’s Categorical Imperative, or even a reference to Hegel, but I confess that I cannot follow you. If you are going to set up deductive, or even inductive, syllogisms, a la Aristotle or symbolic logic, here for understanding, they will have to be more accurately stated, at least for me. I think your conclusions do not follow from your premises, mainly because of the wording. Also, given the forum, the informal verbal fallacies are often more practical in a discussion like this one, and the logical fallacies are just too complicated to use, primarily due to the rigor required in the proofs. The audience is lost, even if a perfectly logical explanation is given. If the clear colloquial explanation is “obvious” enough, the point will be as accepted as a rigorous argument.

    • I do apologize I thought it was clear but that because it was my thoughts and I knew what I was trying to say. Sorry. (Though you did not tell me what part did not seem to follow, rereading it seems clear but no matter)
      I was trying to justify the premise while stating them that must be why it got confused so here it is again.
      1. Morality is a relational concept: how we treat each other.
      2.Legal issues and moral issues are separate things. law is concerned with the rules on the books; morality is concerned with and only with peoples actions. (If fishing is the action, it does not matter if it is a child, a cop or an army vet; its still fishing.)
      3. (conclusion) There is no job one could have which can affect the morality of a situation. (i.e. Andy’s job comes into play in the legal part not the moral)
      The first premise is what makes it impossible for drug using to be immoral, unless of course you deny that premise.
      The second premise forces us to separate the actions from everything else in the situation. That is why I claim if he were not a cop people would not be attacking him as if he shot and killed someone. The news would likely not have phased anyone. Which by the way does not justify the drug use, it just points out that the community is used to seeing this kind of stuff from regular people. I never said it was good, I just said it was not immoral.

      One might say about the conclusion “what if the man’s job is an assassin?” This still does not affect the morality of his actions. if killing is wrong, its wrong does not matter if the guy is an assassin or not.

    • In one section (below the nikki P and nobama character) I make 3 claims, above that though I laid out the argument (below bluman and Nikki P). You may have mistook my claims for my argument.

  • Hi… I never had a DUI charges nor did I exchange sexual favors with any cops. To all the others reading this, I am one of the “daughters” he is referring to. I’m not going to hide my identity either. What you are saying about me is undoubtedly damaging and could have a serious impact on my career. This forum is to discuss an Ambridge police officer not the ” steel city pipeline” or bash my mother and I for no good reason. I dated a police officer. That’s why the sexual favor rumors transpired. This has been going on for far to long now AJ, it needs to stop. LET IT GO!!

  • I LOVE BEAVER COUNTY!

    Y’all are to much! I don’t even read the stories anymore, (There all the same anyways…) I just skip right to the comments & laugh my ass off!

  • So Crates

    Trying to pimp out your amateur philosophy. First rule of “Ethics Club” Know what morality is. Are we talking Appropriate or Inappropriate morality. Plus there are codes of conduct both cultural and professional. I am sure there are police Codes of Conduct that frown upon doing illegal drugs and committing crime. That makes him an asshole and drug addict. If he was just a plumber then he would be a drug addict alone. I agree that doing drugs is not immoral, but doing “illegal” drugs is. You can not be reasoned with because you hold no authority. With a statement like “an oath is purely legal tenure” clearly shows this.

    • “I agree that doing drugs is not immoral, but doing “illegal” drugs is” You are simply collapsing moral into legal. Is a person that drives 37 in a 35 immoral. No? why not hes breaking the law? So what about when laws change do morals. Alcohol was once illegal, was it immoral?
      “You can not be reasoned with because you hold no authority”
      First, if you think our laws are morality was there no morality before America.
      Second, lets assume that reason is my authority, then I would have to be able to be reason with. That is, a counter example or some other type of reasoned response might silence me. Now,present some reason why in such a case, if I held all these views, I would be wrong. Tell me why legal= moral? Tell me why there is a hierarchy of moral codes that reflect the jobs and positions you have in society. I do not think such a hierarchy exists. The simple reason is that we act like they don’t most of the time but we do in this case. (To make any stronger epistemological or metaphysical claim might start a pimping)
      Why should we in this case? Is this case actually an exception or does it only appear to be?

  • @So crates: First, don’t ever apologize, unless you harmed someone intentionally and now regret it. And, consider that this matter is not a logical one, but rather a subjective semantic one. I’ll explain later when I’m on the computer. These phones are as problematic for writing as smoke signals in the rain.

    • For now, I’ll leave it at this, because the explanation is difficult and rather lengthy: the discussion here does not lend itself to logical analysis or a syllogistic type of approach for understanding it. The issues are sociocultural relative ones that depend upon situational terminology semantics and value systems that are relative and based upon differing referents for the terms. That makes the agreement of differing conclusions impossible. Hence, even if one shows that something is technically “logical”, by means of a formal argument, it might not represent “true” reality or even pass face validity for its premises and/or conclusion.

      • I reject any concern about relativism. There are basic human actions which always seem wrong and everyone is offended by. Who likes getting raped, or murdered or lied to? Sure a relativism could justify or condemn Wanto. But both of these positions necessarily presuppose some common morality: the lying, murder and rape.
        If what wanto did was immoral: who was wronged? Only the people he lied to.

  • I just scanned over all of the comments and this I will say:
    Megan, you can do what you want to do it’s your life and no one can run it but you. If you (or any woman) dated a guy, I am sure stuff (intimacy) happens. WHO CARES! I don’t care if this guy was a police officer. That’s YOUR BUSINESS!

    This AJ character – sounds to me like you know some stuff but it also sounds like its hearsay information and you spread it as gospel.

    Blueman – Thank you for your insight. You guys usually deal with negatives all day long and put your life on the line everyday. For that I thank you. But I would hope that any cop would speak up in private to his chief if something fishy is going on in their dept. I agree with you on the figures of corrupt officers. Its like a priest. If you hear 1 molested a boy, now you always will suspect ALL of them do.

    I just can’t see Steel City as being a drug front. They seem like hard working people. I don’t believe it.

  • I moved to Ambridge about a year and a half ago and I have to say that I do not feel safe here. Every time I had to call the police they look at me funny when I say I want something done. My daughter was beat up by 2 girls and they refused to do anything. Then just recently I had an adult threaten me and chase my son trying to beat him and there were even witnesses and still they did nothing. What’s the point of having them here?!?!?!

  • @gringo,ravan,nobama, nikki P:

    First, not a cop. In fact I think what AJ is/was doing is a good thing. I do not think the hate that comes out of it (mostly from other) is good nor his hateful reaction to the hate. But the critical challenge to the system is positive.
    Next, I am not “pimping out” any kind of philosophy. I have read some philosophy (not Kant or Hegel). I know basic logic. Someone challendge me on a VALID point so thats how logic got brought into it. I have not stated any axioms but merely a few definitions that could be changed along the way if the appropriate challenge arose. The only semantic issue is how we use “morality” & “legal” and that is about as deep as any “analysis” goes. The rest is pure argument. I did no claim to know the TRUTHS of morality, as most people on here did. My view is not “The issues are sociocultural relative ones that depend upon situational terminology semantics and value systems that are relative and based upon differing referents for the terms. That makes the agreement of differing conclusions impossible.” These are not the issues I am concerned with, what so ever. To take those as the issues would be to pimp out a philosophy.
    Sure the presentation is a little stiff but nothing your average person could not follow. How else, besides joining in the name calling, might I have gone about present my case?
    Im not after some deep insight into what “wrong” is or “morality”. I want to know why it is people think they know what it is. Moreover, why are some so quick to hate this person but justify their political hero for similar or worse actions. My thought was that this argument/ dialectic/debate/conversation might grab the right persons attention so as to keep them from joining the hate parade.
    Next, I dont understand what kind of distinction “Appropriate or Inappropriate morality” could be; it seems the only distinction would urn upon two relative versions of morality. This is uninteresting to me. Then, morality is a type of code of conduct but so are the rules of golf and we tend not to conflate the two?
    AGAIN for like the 5th time; I NEVER SAID WHAT ANDY DID WAS RIGHT, GOOD, OKAY, VIRTUOUS, LEGAL, OR MORAL. All that I said was the fact that he is a cop does not play into the morality of his actions; only the legality of them. Laws are PURELY conventional. The constitution is a convention we use which our laws are based off of. The codes of conduct for police officers (and all other public servants) are made so to reflect these laws so police cant abuse them. Wanto WAS acting like he is above them, abusing them; but only insofar as any person without a uniform has done so. My point was/is/shall be we can hold him as MORALLY accountable as we hold everyone else who disrepects these laws and no more. That is where his lying come into play. Given his oath and the communities he swore before, he lied. Just like any citizen who “accepts” the (conventional) social contract and then breaks it. Legally they violate a law, morally they lie to their community.

    • So your playing the “It depends on what your definition of is, is” card. Slick Willie got away with that defense, so might as well try it for Andy “The Pill Head” Wanto, right? Like I told you before, NOBODY is buying your BS. Ever. Never. :omg:

      • Two points and then I uess I will be done speaking for everyone elses sake. First, imagine a world where definitions did not matter. What type of information would people exchange in conversation in this world? None, because no one ever know what the other is talking about because everyone defines the terms they use differently. If I define humans as 5 legged gummivores. When you say “human rights exist” and I claim “no they do not” and we began arguing about human rights, we would not be disagreeing. We would each be misunderstanding the subject of our debate; you would be assuming we are talking about people’s rights, where I would think the argument was about this weird alien creature.
        That is why at least presenting a rough definition is important. If you dont like a definition simply challenge it by saying why it is flawed, its not written in stone.

        Second, assume I am a very nieve person( this should not be hard). In the simplest way, explain to me why what I have said is BS. That is, give me evidence that the things I have suggested are wrong, do not just tell me I am wrong(I dont think they are perfectly “right”, but can not (yet) see how they are wrong). If you cannot do this at the very least think harder about why you are rejecting what I am saying (for your own sake not mine).

  • So crates: This would be a great discussion topic for a table at Starbucks. The forum here is restricted in too many ways. If I ever meet you in a such a setting, I’ll be willing to discuss this topic at length. that probably won’t happen.

    For now, I can only say that a partial answer to your last comments could be found in the field of General Semantics. Go to the Facebook web site and try it out. The nonverbal level of experience is discussed there, as is the abstracting nature of language and the subsequent confusion it can lead to. A common GS theme is expressed in the statement “Whatever you SAY it is, it is not.” I.e., The word(s) used to describe a thing is not the thing itself. Also, avoid using the verb “to be” and use “E-prime” to describe things — difficult but worth the time. It’s a scientifically-based study and use of language.

    Yes, it’s heady, but it can be worth the effort to understand it, or even just keep in mind the limitations of language when you use it. The contributors at the site are helpful. It is beginner friendly.

    As I said before, I don’t disagree with some of the things you are saying, just the manner of expressing it.

    You have indicated some concerns about relativism. You won’t find that “problem” at the GS site.

    An example: “The apple is red.” “Apple” is an abstraction (label) of the object itself, and the “redness” is a label for the brain’s interpretation of a part if the electromagnetic spectrum. To experience what an apple “really is”, you would have to just look at it and handle it, etc., not talk about it. But even then, you cannot fully “know” what an “apple” “is”, and you cannot ever attain an “object level” of understanding, just be aware of it.

    GS is not an obscure “-ism” or “-ology”; it is a method for using language that has it’s foundations in science.

    Just some thoughts, because I don’t believe you will get your answers here in this forum.

  • Raven,
    I am familiar with the work of Korzybski and in regards to So Crates thought of his words,
    ” we think just as much with our big toe as we do our brains”

    • @gringo: After all the terms being used, I just thought that dealing with the word semantics and the use of them would help. I don’t meet many people who know about Korzybski or his work. Apparently, the subject is common knowledge to some other people here, though, and I won’t be referencing it any more.

  • Raven,
    Relax that was directed at So Crates not you, besides there are many levels/divisions/branches of semantics also. Morality and the law can not be separate. Why do we hold parents who starve their children out to be unfit and law breaking, but those that feed them twinkies until they are obese as caring. Why are both not forms of child abuse, as both harm the child. Why is it acceptable to force drugs into a psychotic patient (coercive treatment) but no one would tolerate a doctor forcefully performing a tonsillectomy.